Pollif a community majority chooses to be fascist are they right
      – Wonkobox, 2009-08-09 at 06:57:16   (26 comments)

On 2009-08-09 at 13:58:05, Lee J Haywood wrote...
It's a bit different if you get to agree how your government works at the beginning. Even if you hand power over to a dictator, it's a workable system so long as there are some checks in place to ensure that things don't get out of hand. Ultimately it's down to the people who chose to abuse their power, not always the system that's broken.
On 2009-08-09 at 17:03:31, Scarletxstarlet wrote...
Fascism is never right, even if it is chosen by the majority. Pure democracy is a bad idea.
On 2009-08-09 at 17:42:33, Lee J Haywood wrote...
@Scarletxstarlet: You're treating fascism as a specific thing based on past experience rather than a concept that can be moulded to a particular time and place. Couldn't fascism work if the right people are involved in a good society?
On 2009-08-09 at 19:54:31, Scarletxstarlet wrote...
@Lee J Haywood: I don't think so. I think even the right people can be corrupted by an inherently twisted system. My father once stated that a theocracy would be good, as long as Jesus Christ was at the head of it. I told him I disagreed, not because Jesus couldn't be trusted, but because a theocracy suppresses people's freedom of conscience by definition. Such a thing could never be right. This hypothetical fascist community may start out well, and may even continue to benefit the people, but if there's no room for dissent and individualism, then freedom (one of the three most important things in the world) is being stifled.
On 2009-08-09 at 21:10:10, DigitalBoss wrote...
This is why our founding fathers (the US) disliked democracy. They did not want the US to be a democracy. The US was founded as a representative Republic. In the US Constitution there is no mention of the word democracy, they despised it. The Constitution protects citizens INDIVIDUAL rights. The smallest minority is the individual. This is to protect against mob rule (democracy). Democracy is like two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner, the majority, wolves, will win, and the sheep's rights will be ignored. The left in the US likes this whole Democracy thing because they can always take a poll or a vote to find some way around or to ignore the Constitution. They can plunder the treasury, and give away money to just enough voters, a majority, to keep reelecting them. Why worry about taxing the rich more, they will not vote for us anyway? The concept of the US being a Democracy is a recent invention of the left since the days of the New Deal and the Great Society slide toward Socialism.
On 2009-08-10 at 00:32:53, Scarletxstarlet wrote...
@DigitalBoss: I think socialism and democracy are two different things, which-blended together- form something much better than either. Right wing groups always bemoan that socialism will destroy our country. To this, I say: why hasn't it destroyed Canada or Europe yet? The socialist democracies of Scandinavia are producing the happiest and most fulfilled citizens of any country on the planet. They do so by having multiple parties with various messages, instead of this two-party system with little variation between candidates. With a well-written Constitution, such a government is probably the best way to protect minorities from the majority's whims.
On 2009-08-10 at 00:50:23, DigitalBoss wrote...
In a way, it has destroyed them. Most of them have very high taxes, very high unemployment, and populations that are declining, except for people looking to take advantage of their government programs. Taxes are punitive to research, development, and entrepreneurism. If you like Socialism, and you are glad that America is continuing to slide that way, you will see more and more unemployment. America will never be the powerhouse that it once was. I am a Libertarian. I believe in my right to live my life, failure, or success, without the burden of the government in my life.
On 2009-08-10 at 01:00:31, DigitalBoss wrote...
I don't think that socialism will destroy this country. I think that the country will be nothing like I once knew it. It will be nothing like it was intended. It will be less than its potential, mediocre, and its citizens will suffer because of it. Yes, everyone will be more equal, but it will take most down to a common denominator. In other words, I have as much stuff as other people, no matter how much I make, but my highest potential will be brought down. I would rather be poor, with the possibility of being rich, than be poor with no possibility of ever being rich. I would rather fail knowing that next time I try I may be successful, than never failing nor succeeding. Every time our Congress passes a law, liberty is lost.
On 2009-08-10 at 04:54:00, BorgClown wrote...
I wish the future socialism becomes to be a safety net for everyone. Having a modest place to live, access to water, food, medical care and education (aka information) is essential for everyone. Why not making it available from the start to everyone then? That way you can work up your way without struggling to not slipping into poverty. As always, there would be people born with extreme advantages, and it evens outs with people lazy enough to be happy with their basic needs. Nevertheless, I'm sure most of us would pursue something that makes us happy and fulfilled instead of something that makes end meet.
On 2009-08-10 at 06:49:01, Scarletxstarlet wrote...
@BorgClown: I completely agree. Being hungry is a motivator, but so is ambition.
On 2009-08-10 at 09:43:12, Thelevellers wrote...
I would rather have the things I need than be rich. In fact if I could sort my life plan I wont need money - I want to have small-holding with a wood and a metal workshop. in theory sefl-sufficient, but I've seen my parents struggle for that for enough years to realise I wont manage it, at least not without help. As for the facism thing, I think I'd agree with Scarlet here, people are too naturally corruptible, and dissent and individuality is too important to sacrifice. Then again, you could make real inroads to the population problem with a facist state... ;-)
On 2009-08-10 at 14:45:37, DigitalBoss wrote...
It gets harder and harder to obtain the things that you need when you have to pay taxes to the government so they can give it away to someone that doesn't want to work for their own.
On 2009-08-10 at 16:30:39, BorgClown wrote...
Sheesh, my previous post is more unintelligible than usual. I'm so sorry, it's just that I've got the flu this weekend, so I wrote semi-conscious =P OTOH, having a day off is cool, even if you gotta be really sick to get it. I welcome the peace a solitary house has.
On 2009-08-10 at 16:37:17, Lee J Haywood wrote...
@DigitalBoss: It's a bit pointless saying that you don't take money from the government when (a) the government has already taken money from you and (b) you're entitled to support that is otherwise going unclaimed. Unclaimed benefits in the UK amount to £8,000 million. When I went to university my local council gave me a grant to cover my tuition fees. They get money from homeowners, but since you have to have a home it's really much different from an income tax (worse, if anything). The situation is different now - students generally leave university with huge debts.
On 2009-08-10 at 16:39:40, Scarletxstarlet wrote...
@DigitalBoss: I feel that we should all work as hard as we can. Some people have more to give than others. And as much as we SAY that everyone's equal, it's really not true yet. As a straight white male in America, you have to admit that your opportunities have been much greater than most other people's.
On 2009-08-10 at 17:07:37, DigitalBoss wrote...
OK, explain to me why as a straight white male my opportunities have been MUCH GREATER than most. I am dying to hear this.
On 2009-08-10 at 17:10:32, DigitalBoss wrote...
My boss is a female, and her boss is a female, both of them make much more than I do. My direct manager is a gay male. Explain it to me a great intelligent young one. You know, I am so lucky to have all these genius 20 year olds around me to let me know how the world really is.
On 2009-08-10 at 17:59:14, Scarletxstarlet wrote...
@DigitalBoss: I have all female bosses too. I'm not saying that every single white dude has more opportunity than every other person. On a global scale, though, the likelihood of you having a decent life is significantly higher than that of a female or a minority group member. You don't need to condescend to people just because they're younger than you. I wouldn't ask you questions if I wasn't interested in hearing your side of the story. I'm trying to have a productive and informative conversation with you, but if you really don't think I know what I'm talking about, I guess we don't have to do that.
On 2009-08-10 at 20:11:23, DigitalBoss wrote...
I wish what you say about having an advantage were true, but I don't see it. They come and cut off my electricity when I don't/can't pay it too.
On 2009-08-10 at 22:10:10, BorgClown wrote...
I suppose the advantage is shrinking, as shown by this graph: http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/10484377 Globalization started a few years before we noticed it. There are recent statistics about how your sex, height, color and appeal influence your salary. It is an average, some qre bound to see a magnified version of it, and some are bound not to see it at all.
On 2009-08-11 at 03:01:22, Baslisks wrote...
@BorgClown: I'm a hot Swedish young man. Me and my boss have an interesting first encounter, I introduced as a biological dildo. Sex appeal definitely has made my work environment so much easier.
On 2009-08-11 at 16:00:00, DigitalBoss wrote...
There is a big difference between opportunity and outcome. I see income as outcome. All opportunities being the same does not guarantee that all outcomes are the same. The chart that shows income has no indication of opportunity whatsoever.
On 2009-08-11 at 16:01:56, DigitalBoss wrote...
In other words, it is what you do with your opportunities that determines your outcome. It is about the decisions that you make in your life. Race, or gender has nothing to do with it.
On 2009-08-11 at 17:46:49, Scarletxstarlet wrote...
@DigitalBoss: I wish that were true.
On 2009-08-12 at 00:53:39, BorgClown wrote...
@DigitalBoss: Good graphs show the statistical tendencies, and that's a cold fact. It's averaging countless opportunities and clumping them together into nice colored points.
On 2009-10-08 at 21:15:00, Bensci wrote...
yes of course they are. Fascism is always right, as opposed to communism, the left.