OpinionBeing shallow is not always a bad thing and being deep is not always good.
      – Baslisks, 2009-03-20 at 14:30:53   (23 comments)

On 2009-03-20 at 14:37:50, Baslisks wrote...
I was sitting at dinner with a post feminist girl. Me and my friend got into the conversation of various clothing objects we like and dislike on women and thus sort of mocking what they wore. Like shirts that are supposed to supplement breast size but in reality makes you look pregnant or frilly shirts hence forth known as vagina shirts. All in all a good conversation but she started berating us on being shallow. This got me thinking, why is it bad to be shallow? Isn't it our primal urges being expressed almost bluntly? How is that bad? Then I thought that it only promotes the individual and not the group. Which is a more socially accepted ideal then individual happiness. Now it comes to me to believe that a good mix of indie happiness and group happiness actual promotes a nice big blanket of warm fuzzy shit over everyone. Plus when I look at art, listen to music, or other creative endeavors; I am not looking for a blanket of non expression. Even deep water looks shallow when uniform and steady.
On 2009-03-20 at 14:48:08, Lee J Haywood wrote...
There's a distinction between being shallow and expressing shallowness or letting it guide you. We do fool ourselves into thinking that we're not as shallow as others, or as we actually are - when it comes to making judgements about others we cannot help but reject those who don't appeal. At the same time, it's not really helpful to anyone when you make a big deal about how unappealing someone is. I know plenty of people that will bitch about someone behind their back, or alternatively dote over another for entirely shallow reasons. It's one thing to say that someone is 'for me' or 'not for me', but quite another to advertise the fact that you don't care about the person inside and that looks are everything.
On 2009-03-20 at 14:57:27, Thelevellers wrote...
I would agree with you Basilisks... And in the exact wording - 'not ALWAYS a bad thing'. I think it's probably good for you to admit to your shallowness every now and then, just so long as you don't let it define you or guide your decisions over whelmingly... I would also say that there are times when being deep is just not wanted! Sometimes I can really enjoy having some inane, shallow and immature banter - get it out of my system in a way. As long as I know that the people I'm talking to COULD discuss deeper things if we so choose I'm happy. It's when I know that this is all they can/will talk aboout I feel the need to scream and GTFO.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:09:05, Baslisks wrote...
@Lee J Haywood: Though the fact that your outward expression of yourself is a general display what is in the inside. Like take me for instance. I wear thick as hell glasses that have been bent back into shape more times then I can remember with band t shirts and generally a good pair of well fitting jeans and I am normally in company of books or papers. I have scars on my knuckles and a couple of open cuts along with them. People generally assume that I am into music, fairly educated and not good to mess with. I get appreciative looks from several girl categories with semi overlapping interests usually girls into music and books. Superficial look at me. My roommate, He wears mid level designer clothes. He wears medium level shoes that are in fair condition with a general layer of dirt. He's skinny as hell and generally is in company of a computer with a flash game or mmorpg or several stereotypical whiny looking bitches. Hes alright, very mainstream, doesn't question anything and very boring.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:14:27, Lee J Haywood wrote...
It is always fascinating to see people with their usual clothing and accessories, etc., stripped away. Or how you yourself can be treated very differently by just changing your jacket or (for women) sporting a different hair colour. It's still the same person inside, but shallow perceptions are misleading and it's rarely fair to judge a book by the way it wears its hair. When you're looking for a relationship there's no doubt that appearances do matter a great deal, but for day-to-day interactions the personality is key. It's often the case that people end up dating a friend they'd never have chosen based on appearance alone, and so shallowness is a sort of short-cut / rule-of-thumb mechanism at best.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:17:00, Baslisks wrote...
I have engineer friends that reek of engineering and is in fact what initially drew me to them. They wear nasa shirts everywhere and good pair of pants and comfortable athletic shoes. They are always in company of their netbooks and they are either reading slash dot or looking at spread sheets. You can't let clothes be a final judge but you do have to observe their actions for a few minutes. Body language is key along with speech patterns and some other things. In reality you do judge everyone shallowly because you can't get inside their heads. Everyone thinks Einstein was deep but what if the only times he sat down and thought was when he was at his work table and the rest of the time he thought about getting some cheese? An assumption that others are deep is not in fact a deep thought but a shallow estimate. Basic conversation only shows so much. I tend to judge by actions only. Punks tend to talk deep but act shallow as fuck. Maybe I need to update my definition of depth?
On 2009-03-20 at 15:20:43, Lee J Haywood wrote...
But you can have a shallow (not deep) conversation with someone without actually being shallow. There are 2 different meanings at work. If you're talking about a 3rd person in a shallow way, that's pointless and obnoxious, but if you're having a shallow conversation about cheese or whatever then that's no bad thing.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:22:44, Saywhatagain wrote...
On the other hand, if life is all about making successful predictions of possible outcomes, profiling people on some set of standards is ever so more efficient than trying to invest the time to get to know EVERY person as intimately as possible.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:23:26, Baslisks wrote...
@Lee J Haywood: clothing and accessories out lay what you have available at any one point. If I wore horrendously overpriced clothes people assume I have more money. More money = better mating partner as able to take on better care of the young. AS a societal thing better young means you are less likely to be killed off by another group. Now being a brute dosen't mean you are going to pwn everyone, now intelligence is a better trait suited to this world evolving. Artifacts proving that you understand the world better then another then increases your worth. Its when people start wearing and using your artifacts when they don't necessarily understand what they are. It's like the hipsters wearing scarves. They meant something and now they are completely devoid of meaning.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:24:37, Saywhatagain wrote...
Off topic -@ Lee: What and why are there limits of comment participation ?
On 2009-03-20 at 15:25:46, Baslisks wrote...
@Lee J Haywood: Your group has to pick and choose who to hang out with in order to better itself or to asses who is a threat. Not communicating this to your group is leaving it open to threats. We are still tribes not just as barbaric but just as defensive.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:32:18, Lee J Haywood wrote...
@Baslisks: There's no doubt that people judge you based on your appearance, etc. - that's not to say that you have to do the same, and put everyone you meet in a tidy box and assume that that's all there is too them. Stereotypes are okay for random groups of strangers, but they may be misleading when you assume that someone isn't interesting when they actually are, or whatever, and you neither give yourself a chance to find out more nor give them the opportunity to express themselves more fully. @Saywhatagain: I guess you're referring to the maximum of 3 comments in a row. You are limited to 1,024 characters (shown by the counter) and a maximum of 5 lines.
On 2009-03-20 at 15:40:16, Baslisks wrote...
I see thousands of people a day. Very few of them do I get to see again. There are 900 people living in my building alone and there are several of these buildings on campus. All conversations start with assumptions based on shallow assumptions. Whether they are wearing an american apparel hoodie and I ask how they hold up and then maybe talk about music and then i can get a gernal idea where our interests lie and decide if I wish to pursue conversation. Thats a shallow beginning with branching possibilities. When recruiting for a space group we look for engineering and technically minded people. Not that non technical people won't be interested just that they might not contribute much to the setting. Theres only so many times you can here that rocket looks like a penis joke...
On 2009-03-20 at 16:13:22, Lee J Haywood wrote...
At least when you're working out how to start a conversation you're not attacking someone nor drooling over someone based on their looks. Rather, you're using clues to choose the right words - it's not what I'd call shallow, just working with limited information.
On 2009-03-20 at 17:07:02, Baslisks wrote...
but its through arguing and talking about the various different clothes, hairstyles, and other things that you can build up a basis for yourself. Making fun of a poorly designed or worn shirt makes sense because it improves the fitness of the persons who recognize why it doesn't look good. One shirt makes a girl look pregnant and I'd rather not have to deal with that pregnancy shit yet. You were a pair of pants that makes our ass look incredibly fat and misrepresents what you actually look like. Its like talking about black socks and white shoes or socks with sandals. Now , you have to always receive criticism with an open mind. Even the most blatant attack has information on you. You can use this to then develop your own ideas on which to improve upon and decide what is good. Now it comes when you let a society tell you exactly whats good and you forget the independent part of you that people start feeling like slugs. There is always a balance.
On 2009-03-20 at 17:15:01, Lee J Haywood wrote...
Well sure, respectful criticism given to the person in question is valid. And making internal decisions based on shallow beliefs about someone is natural. It's talking about other people in a shallow way just because you can that I object to - basically, being bitchy about insignificant things or being obsessed with someone based on nothing more than their appearance.
On 2009-03-20 at 17:40:27, Baslisks wrote...
infatuation is a primal thing, drives you to mate with something you think is pretty. Nothing beyond that. Society frowns on that because it is a physical thing only. The thing with that is there is no way to fight it.and significance is all relative. You would be surprised what people would kill for.
On 2009-03-20 at 17:47:16, Lee J Haywood wrote...
But society doesn't frown on it - at least, not often amongst men objectifying women, or women being mean about each other for example. You can be as shallow as you want, but acting shallow is just obnoxious.
On 2009-03-20 at 17:55:49, Baslisks wrote...
oh by all means. Its annoying but from a standpoint of society it serves a really interesting view point. This all stemmed from a girl calling me shallow. The funny part was that I was talking music and philosophy literally a minute before it. In a shallow sense I prefer a more classical style of dress as in 1920-30 american. Form fitting but not too revealing and a touch of elegance compared to everyone dressing like they are goddamned five.
On 2009-03-21 at 02:30:43, Thelevellers wrote...
I'll join you with the clothes there Bas! I lioke to get my three piece suit and pocket watch out at every opportunity! Admittedly, that's a very 'Jeeves and Wooster' view of the thirties, but I like it :) This is quite fascinating for me right now, partly cause i'm drunk (oh no! Drunk posting!) And partly cause I met a irl tonight, and we got on well, it was just reading this (as i'm not ready for bed just yet, and she didnot accompany me home) that I realised I had not really lookeed at her much, just talked... Admittedly she aimed or a cuddled up posisition that made it hard to look At her fairly soon, but even after that, I just wasnot that fussed about her looks, it was the personality that made me happy enough...
On 2009-03-21 at 05:02:57, Baslisks wrote...
Meh, if not anything more serious sounds like a cool friend there. Awesome for you!
On 2009-03-21 at 08:03:45, BorgClown wrote...
Very interesting topic, there's nothing much to add. Just to participate, I'd like to say that I like to be shallow from time to time, mostly by doing or saying silly things. Being shallow is part of a complete breakfast.
On 2009-03-21 at 11:33:40, Thelevellers wrote...
Heh, I think I understand what I said last night! I was feeling all pleased with being intelligible, and being able to type... I'll not believe myself next time! :)